GT28 GTI vs 135i

Well while the EVO is still in the shop I played camera man today. Today was a match between a regular on here the GT28 GTI Stage 4 APR car with built motor and race head vs a very quick 135i JB4 G4 car with FMIC only. There were 4 runs. The other 3 the GTI was suffering from some kind of boost undershoot where he was only hitting 22-22psi. This is the only clean race where the GTI hit 30 psi. The 135i is on pump gas and hitting 14psi on map 5. Results are as expected from a ~380 HP GTI vs a probably ~340 HP 135i. Enjoy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rdgtTLTp4g

Here is a very impressive GTI we have seen before over on VWBoost racing a GermanBoost Network member (bigdnno98) with a tuned Mistsubishi Evo. The GTI is certainly impressive and features a GT28 turbo upgrade, built motor, race head, and 30 psi of boost. The 135i gets walked fairly easily but in its defense it is running a BMW JB4 tune on pump gas (Map 5) with the only other supplemental modification being a front mount intercooler.

http://www.60-130.com/images/importe...01/GeNMQ-1.png

135i owners with a tune definitely should not underestimate tuned VW Golf's although this particular one is built to a fairly high level. Would be great to see a rematch with the 135i running race gas/E85 and downpipes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rdgtTLTp4g

I'm building the 1er personally so stay tuned :)

Nice pull indeed... 30psi is a ton of boost

Next time I'd like to see equal people in both cars. I know the GTI would still win, but it wouldn't pull that much like it did in the video.

They did 4 runs. I rode in each car for 2 runs. The GTI wasn't hitting boost target the other 3 runs though so I didn't post them. I agree though, There was a noticable difference when I switched cars.

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Originally Posted by RnmEvo9

Next time I'd like to see equal people in both cars. I know the GTI would still win, but it wouldn't pull that much like it did in the video.

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I still would love to see this car with a gt30 swap, shouldn't have an issue hitting 500whp.

also, wonder if there are any k04 TSI GTIs in your area, that would be a nice race to see, should almost be dead even.

We're trying to find his a GT3071r right now. We also have a meth kit to install on the car. It'll be really damn fast very soon. I just have to make sure my EVO stays faster LOL.

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Originally Posted by chrisisnapping

I still would love to see this car with a gt30 swap, shouldn't have an issue hitting 500whp.

also, wonder if there are any k04 TSI GTIs in your area, that would be a nice race to see, should almost be dead even.

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My last car was a 2009 GTI with a K04, and I ran a best time of 13.42@108 mph. Nevermind the time, since traction on a FWD car is a joke -but I did manage 2.0 60 foots on cheap street tires. Anyway, my 335i with just a tune ran similar times, but I was trapping 112-114 mph. The n54 is just a beast! If only APR got of their ass and made a turbo for us. Their stuff is so nice it could pass for factory. I would move back to VW only if someone figures out a way to fully disable the ASR/TSC/ whatever they call it.

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Originally Posted by Ryan Mills

My last car was a 2009 GTI with a K04, and I ran a best time of 13.42@108 mph. Nevermind the time, since traction on a FWD car is a joke -but I did manage 2.0 60 foots on cheap street tires. Anyway, my 335i with just a tune ran similar times, but I was trapping 112-114 mph. The n54 is just a beast! If only APR got of their ass and made a turbo for us. Their stuff is so nice it could pass for factory. I would move back to VW only if someone figures out a way to fully disable the ASR/TSC/ whatever they call it.

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Well good news my friend: someone figured out how to make an adjustment in VAGCOM to fully disable the ESC/traction control in *2012* GTI and Golf R using the ASR button.

I do agree with you, these cars take a LOT of work to be able to be decent in the 1/4, suspension, full mounts and some amazing rubber. AWE tuning turned a [email protected] on the k04 with 100oct (powered by GIAC), so the power/weight ratio is there, just the FWD aspect kills these cars.


As for APR in the BMW world, well shit, think AR or HPF is expensive? I can only imagine how badly the "bmw tax" would be for you guys. They make great products and the customer service is good, but their prices are ridiculous.

I'd gladly trade APR for BMS :think:

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Originally Posted by chrisisnapping

Well good news my friend: someone figured out how to make an adjustment in VAGCOM to fully disable the ESC/traction control in *2012* GTI and Golf R using the ASR button.

I do agree with you, these cars take a LOT of work to be able to be decent in the 1/4, suspension, full mounts and some amazing rubber. AWE tuning turned a [email protected] on the k04 with 100oct (powered by GIAC), so the power/weight ratio is there, just the FWD aspect kills these cars.


As for APR in the BMW world, well $#@!, think AR or HPF is expensive? I can only imagine how badly the "bmw tax" would be for you guys. They make great products and the customer service is good, but their prices are ridiculous.

I'd gladly trade APR for BMS :think:

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Didn't they already run 10's with a Golf R?

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Originally Posted by Sticky

Didn't they already run 10's with a Golf R?

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I believe so, with about the same mods as this GTI has, but the R of course has AWD.

Old news. VW/AUDI turbo engines have ALWAYS made good power. Back in the early 2000's the 1.8T engines were pushing 450 whp on stock internals. A twin turbo VR6 24V engines are routinely pushed to 650 whp.

The APR products are so polished out its ridiculous. VWNA even commissions them to mod and tune cars for car shows. The driveability of APR and GIAC tuned cars is second to none.

N54 tuning scene is just BARELY exiting its infancy stage and entering into early childhood. We won't see massive horsepower gains till we start messing with the cams, figure out the fueling system and engine management. Slapping a big boy turbo is the easiest part. We are far from achieving the same level of vision and precision in the N54 tuning scene.

@bigdnno98
How close are you to Nashville? i may be heading down to Nashville in a couple months and i would like to see if i could get in on some of this action :)

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Originally Posted by vasillalov

Old news. VW/AUDI turbo engines have ALWAYS made good power. Back in the early 2000's the 1.8T engines were pushing 450 whp on stock internals. A twin turbo VR6 24V engines are routinely pushed to 650 whp.

The APR products are so polished out its ridiculous. VWNA even commissions them to mod and tune cars for car shows. The driveability of APR and GIAC tuned cars is second to none.

N54 tuning scene is just BARELY exiting its infancy stage and entering into early childhood. We won't see massive horsepower gains till we start messing with the cams, figure out the fueling system and engine management. Slapping a big boy turbo is the easiest part. We are far from achieving the same level of vision and precision in the N54 tuning scene.

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Gti's (and vr6 powered cars) have had a LOT longer to get stuff built for them, and their market is huggggeee with a low price point..I give the n54 6-12 months to 600whp+ being pretty easy and reliable+smooth with proefi stepping up. Finally a true standalone to manage it all.

even the jb4 should be able to handle big turbos, as long as they can overcome fuelling.. Probably not as smoothky though, and same deal for vishnu/fftec, but we all know how shady all that is..

it's a ways off the 1000+ of the 2jz, but even they weren't seeing easy biig power until well into the 2000's (same with the rb crowd), from motors from 1990~.. With the time the n54 has been around, it's doing alright lol

and too many companies overlook the n54 for project cars, and swap s65's or s85/s/n63 or older s motors etc... When the n54 is growing so well

it may not be as 'amazingly awesome', but it should be considered as such..

s65/s85 swap may draw easy crowds, but a ridiculous power n54 would draw a large enough crowd...

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Originally Posted by vasillalov

The APR products are so polished out its ridiculous. VWNA even commissions them to mod and tune cars for car shows. The driveability of APR and GIAC tuned cars is second to none.

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Agreed. They are the best in this regard, top notch.

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Originally Posted by Flinchy

Gti's (and vr6 powered cars) have had a LOT longer to get stuff built for them, and their market is huggggeee with a low price point..I give the n54 6-12 months to 600whp+ being pretty easy and reliable+smooth with proefi stepping up. Finally a true standalone to manage it all.

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There really isn't much that matches the big turbo VR6 cars. USP is trapping 160 in their VR6 turbo S4.

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Originally Posted by Sticky

There really isn't much that matches the big turbo VR6 cars. USP is trapping 160 in their VR6 turbo S4.

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the car sounds relatively quiet too, I heard it go down the track at FIXXFEST, substantially quieter than the V8 muscle cars that only run 110mph at my track :naughty:

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Originally Posted by spool twice

the car sounds relatively quiet too, I heard it go down the track at FIXXFEST, substantially quieter than the V8 muscle cars that only run 110mph at my track :naughty:

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I want to build one. With a bigger turbo... :)

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Originally Posted by Sticky

There really isn't much that matches the big turbo VR6 cars. USP is trapping 160 in their VR6 turbo S4.

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Really? 160? Deep 9's.. Ed: just googled a vid, awwwwgh, 800+hp and 9.6 wow.. First turbo vr6 i've seen, before i only ever saw sc ones, most of which were half developed (but still powerful) :o.. I had no idea they existed at that power level!

arguably not an s4 with a vr6 in it though, just looks like one..
Ed: OH its a 12v vr6 not a 24v.. Well fair enough, way older then

plus, canmt foret that exhast/engine note.. Augh!.. Before i got the bmw, i nearly got a mk5 r32, but it was $4k out of my price :(.. Months later i realize the 3.2 quattro a3 at $10k cheaper is the same.damn.car.. But even nicer and less mileage.. r -_-

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Originally Posted by rader1

@bigdnno98
How close are you to Nashville? i may be heading down to Nashville in a couple months and i would like to see if i could get in on some of this action :)

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45 min from Nashville and some of our crew lives in Nashville. Def hit me up when you have dates we'll set up a meet or something.

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Originally Posted by Flinchy

Really? 160? Deep 9's..

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Sometimes I feel like nobody actually reads the site :(

http://www.audiboost.com/content.php...n-the-1-4-mile

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Originally Posted by Flinchy

arguably not an s4 with a vr6 in it though, just looks like one..
Ed: OH its a 12v vr6 not a 24v.. Well fair enough, way older then

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Think about a 24v with more displacement and a bigger turbo.

The vw would get smoked if the 135 had meth, dps and Iso

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Originally Posted by Irishace

The vw would get smoked if the 135 had meth, dps and Iso

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I'm not sure but we'll see soon.

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Originally Posted by Sticky

Sometimes I feel like nobody actually reads the site


http://www.audiboost.com/content.php...n-the-1-4-mile

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Sorryyy, i tend to either o straight to the bb forums or sometimes check the bb front page.. I should visit the other pages too as i likr any and all awesomeness..

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Originally Posted by Sticky

Think about a 24v with more displacement and a bigger turbo.

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Aren't the biggest 12v's only 3.1 or 3.2l bored and stroked and pushing it? Where the 24v's are 3.2 and 3.6+?

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Originally Posted by Flinchy

Aren't the biggest 12v's only 3.1 or 3.2l bored and stroked and pushing it? Where the 24v's are 3.2 and 3.6+?

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You're probably right. I was just saying think of how much could be had with a VR6 setup.

I would have loved to give a tuned 135i a run in my k04 gti before i started parting it out :think:...my buddy just put an ap and dp's on after i started parting out, he made 360whp and 421wtq on the same dyno i made 329whp and 340wtq 2 weeks before

APR has posted this vid on their facebook page LOL. I went ahead and posted the vid of my 335i smashing the same GTI for them :)

That GTI is one hell of a sleeper. How bad is the torque steer?

I haven't driven it but he's never complained about torque steer so it shouldn't be that bad but I'll ask him.

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Originally Posted by clongo

That GTI is one hell of a sleeper. How bad is the torque steer?

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umm majority of FWD cars... have EQUAL LENGTH HALF SHAFTS. Just about ALL modern ones as well. If you got torque steer it's probably in your head or in your excitement

IE: you don't know what it is nor are you experiencing it lol (with 450+ wtq in a 2800 lb car on 26inch x 8.5inch DR's..no torque steer lol)

I'm not sure the just because a car has equal length half shafts torque steer is eliminated. My wife had an 06 Nissan Altima SE-R and that thing would rip the wheel out of your hand. There have been many reviews provided by car experts on cars such as the Focus RS and other FWD cars complaining of torque steer. I don't think it's in anyone's head.

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Originally Posted by lvlemphiz

umm majority of FWD cars... have EQUAL LENGTH HALF SHAFTS. Just about ALL modern ones as well. If you got torque steer it's probably in your head or in your excitement

IE: you don't know what it is nor are you experiencing it lol (with 450+ wtq in a 2800 lb car on 26inch x 8.5inch DR's..no torque steer lol)

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Originally Posted by bigdnno98

APR has posted this vid on their facebook page LOL. I went ahead and posted the vid of my 335i smashing the same GTI for them :)

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Next time include a watermark :P

I'll have to figure out how to do that next time haha

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Originally Posted by Sticky

Next time include a watermark :P

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Originally Posted by bigdnno98

APR has posted this vid on their facebook page LOL. I went ahead and posted the vid of my 335i smashing the same GTI for them :)

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Haha, priceless.

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Originally Posted by lvlemphiz

umm majority of FWD cars... have EQUAL LENGTH HALF SHAFTS. Just about ALL modern ones as well. If you got torque steer it's probably in your head or in your excitement

IE: you don't know what it is nor are you experiencing it lol (with 450+ wtq in a 2800 lb car on 26inch x 8.5inch DR's..no torque steer lol)

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while my car is putting down no where near any decent numbers, I must say I have 0 torque steer.

However, I hear the mazdaspeed3 have notoriously terrible torque steer.

Perhaps @fastgti69 can chime in with his experience with his cobalt SS.

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Originally Posted by bigdnno98

I'm not sure the just because a car has equal length half shafts torque steer is eliminated. My wife had an 06 Nissan Altima SE-R and that thing would rip the wheel out of your hand. There have been many reviews provided by car experts on cars such as the Focus RS and other FWD cars complaining of torque steer. I don't think it's in anyone's head.

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100% not torque steer...there are cars that limit power to certain wheels (Caliber) and can cause that feeling...but it's not normally induced (mechanically). If the car is ripping the wheels out your hand you have other issues in your suspension (see blown LCA bushings, mounts etc...even alignment). UNEVEN PAVEMENT can cause this feeling too...it's not from the car but from the tire riding the crown of the road

It's like the people that think they experience forms of compressor surge...half the time that's not what they are hearing

The WHOLE ADVENT of incorporating equal length half shafts in FWD cars is PRIMARILY TO ELIMINATE TORQUE STEER (do yourself a favor and look up that advance in FWD suspension)

We'll have to agree to disagree then because the rest of America is calling it torque steer and you are the first person I've ever heard of say that torque steer DOES NOT EXIST IN MODERN FWD CARS. I don't really care enough about the topic to research it. My wife's SE-R did it brand new so i know it wasn't blown bushings or suspension issues.

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Originally Posted by lvlemphiz

100% not torque steer...there are cars that limit power to certain wheels (Caliber) and can cause that feeling...but it's not normally induced (mechanically). If the car is ripping the wheels out your hand you have other issues in your suspension (see blown LCA bushings, mounts etc...even alignment). UNEVEN PAVEMENT can cause this feeling too...it's not from the car but from the tire riding the crown of the road

It's like the people that think they experience forms of compressor surge...half the time that's not what they are hearing

The WHOLE ADVENT of incorporating equal length half shafts in FWD cars is PRIMARILY TO ELIMINATE TORQUE STEER (do yourself a favor and look up that advance in FWD suspension)

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"Because torque steer is caused by, well, torque, limiting engine output until the accelerating vehicle gets its legs under itself also works. This is the technique used by Mazda in the Mazdaspeed3. Boost from the 2.3-liter engine's turbocharger is limited in first and second gear, reducing the normally 280 available pound-feet of torque to a level that's a bit more manageable. Even with this "Advanced Torque Management" system doing its thing, the 'Speed3 still exhibited a noticeable level of torque steer during our testing."

Just saying....

Many people experience torque steer. From 5 minutes of reading on google searches, torque steer is caused by MANY reasons, one of them being unequal length half shafts. Not all though.