Champion Motorsports invites TPC Racing to a match

[MoBoost]

This is a great discussion--the "real" truth about tuning unlike that garbage on 6speed by Scott Slauson where he really does not say much of anything and avoids all the good questions. I'm a little confused, however. If FVD supplies the tunes, aren't they an aftermarket tune also? So they must have gotten the files from someone else too, no? What's the difference between a legit DAMOS file and a non-legit? TIA.

[MHP LLC]

sorry for my ignorance...so what that mean....

you could tune my gt3 to get the gains you stated above?

or you take a cup car file and put it in my car?

or you take a cup car file and put it in my car and then tune that file? If so, is this on the same 91 octane gas I use now? What are the specifics?

We tune your ECU to CUP specs, no need to import other files the cars we support in sanctioned racing are 997.1/997.2 GT3 and GT3RSs, also a few 2010 Cayman's for Koni.

This is a U.S. spec 997.2 GT3 ECU on the bench I did a few weeks ago:



We tune spec cars for spec fuel, 98 octane, not 91. Gains will not be the same on 91 no question. Hard to say but on 93 the gains drop to 28HP/38lb/ft at the crank. On 91 I would speculate another drop (we're talking 3 degrees of WOT advance here) 21HP/30lb/ft.

Dont mean to be negative...but I feel like if someone had or could make this gain on the GT3 it would be known, or I would of heard of it by now. To my knowledge most tunes for the GT3 claim maybe 10-12whp and claim improvements in throttle response. If you could take my car stock from 435hp to 470hp that would be a major difference....

I absolutely understand what you're saying, we don't market these files to the U.S. public simply because most people just balk at the price and don't understand the difference in product quality--which is why 99% of them go to actual race teams or overseas. The difference in quality and price stems from the person doing the remapping, and although we've never had a return we still offer our 14 day 100% money back guarantee.

On a spec 98 octane tune I can guarantee the gains above, on 91 we'd still be 2x what the competition gives though nowhere close to what we could make with better fuel. Pump gas is so inconsistant by comparison to race gas.

I can tell you first hand via my 997.1 GT3 the difference is insane, even at 3000rpm. You feel it everywhere, part throttle, WOT, low rpm or high, it simply pulls harder with a smoother more linear curve than with the stock tune. We only bump rev limiter +100rpm but it does make a difference in tight courses when you're on the borderline of upshifting vs not.

v3 ECU CUP remapping (v4 is spec fuel) includes:

Modified A/F and Ignition Timing

Elimination of all Torque Limiters

Eliminated DbW TB Delay

PM Variocam/PASM/TC Map Patches

WOT and Part Throttle Tuning

+ More

I'll stand behind the file and work with you on pricing if you're interested, just to help get the word out. I would like nothing more than to see our remapping compared to any other Porsche tuner, tune for tune. Shoot me a PM or email [email protected] or call and I can give you more info.

Thanks

[MHP LLC]

This is a great discussion--the "real" truth about tuning unlike that garbage on 6speed by Scott Slauson where he really does not say much of anything and avoids all the good questions. I'm a little confused, however. If FVD supplies the tunes, aren't they an aftermarket tune also? So they must have gotten the files from someone else too, no? What's the difference between a legit DAMOS file and a non-legit? TIA.

Yes FVD supplies both hardware and software to customers directly and to other "tuners". The flow of information, files, hardware is a one way street from Europe to the U.S. not the other way around.

Being in Germany I'm sure they sourced their base files from someone at or close to Porsche/Bosch that is very likely true. I have no issues with how tuners get their base files, I just don't like it when others copy remapped IP, I believe everyone should do their own work.

Basically a legit DAMOS file is an unaltered road map of all the maps in a partiulcar platform/ECU. A non-legit file (what most U.S. tuners get) is a broad term that most often describes a once authentic DAMOS file that has now been manipulated to the point that it's useless to the end user. Again this is most often done because Europeans don't think much of American tuners and for the most part don't trust them. Sadly I tend to agree with them on this.

Also keep in mind that just because someone over here gets their hands on a legit DAMOS file it doesn't automatically mean their files are going to improve. The file simply says where the maps are (in German) not what to do with the ones that need to be modified. For this reason American "tuners" look to European IP to study and reverse engineer/clone/copy/steal.

Thanks

[MHP LLC]

Here's some info to back what i was saying earlier about U.S. dyno tuning producing erroneous data due to lack of airflow. This is our test cell in Europe, these fans are capable of blowing 180MPH in order to replicate 1:1 pulls in the real world, properly loading the car with the Cartec LP3500 dyno and the correct volume and velocity of air blowing into, under, and over the motor:











All of our files are created and tested here first, then tested on track before we release as ready to sell.

[MoBoost]

Yes FVD supplies both hardware and software to customers directly and to other "tuners". The flow of information, files, hardware is a one way street from Europe to the U.S. not the other way around.

Being in Germany I'm sure they sourced their base files from someone at or close to Porsche/Bosch that is very likely true. I have no issues with how tuners get their base files, I just don't like it when others copy remapped IP, I believe everyone should do their own work.

Basically a legit DAMOS file is an unaltered road map of all the maps in a partiulcar platform/ECU. A non-legit file (what most U.S. tuners get) is a broad term that most often describes a once authentic DAMOS file that has now been manipulated to the point that it's useless to the end user. Again this is most often done because Europeans don't think much of American tuners and for the most part don't trust them. Sadly I tend to agree with them on this.

Also keep in mind that just because someone over here gets their hands on a legit DAMOS file it doesn't automatically mean their files are going to improve. The file simply says where the maps are (in German) not what to do with the ones that need to be modified. For this reason American "tuners" look to European IP to study and reverse engineer/clone/copy/steal.

Thanks

Thanks for the informative reply. I think I'm starting to understand. So a company like FVD gets a hold of an authentic DAMOS file from some inside source and then modifies it to their specifications. They then sell the tune as an aftermarket product. What you're saying is that US tuners get a hold of an already modified file and copy it somehow and resell it under a different name, the same exact file? Once you have a modified file in your ECU, can any tuner simply copy and read what another tuner did to it so that there are no secrets? Why can't US tuners also get a hold of a legit DAMOS file from inside sources? There's so many tuners out there, Softronic, EVOMS, GIAC, etc...where do they all get there files?

[MoBoost]

Just an observation--Switzer is making some huge HP gains with bolt-ons and stock internals. They hold the 60-130 record for a P-car, something like 4.25s. So it seems like they are doing their own customization of the software. I can't see how they are copying anyone elses since the system must be unique to their car.

[MHP LLC]

Thanks for the informative reply. I think I'm starting to understand. So a company like FVD gets a hold of an authentic DAMOS file from some inside source and then modifies it to their specifications. They then sell the tune as an aftermarket product. What you're saying is that US tuners get a hold of an already modified file and copy it somehow and resell it under a different name, the same exact file? Once you have a modified file in your ECU, can any tuner simply copy and read what another tuner did to it so that there are no secrets? Why can't US tuners also get a hold of a legit DAMOS file from inside sources? There's so many tuners out there, Softronic, EVOMS, GIAC, etc...where do they all get there files?

DAMOS files are like road maps, you don't modify them (unless you want to mess with someone lol) they tell you where to look for what maps (ie WOT A/F, Ignition advance, etc). Real tuners use DAMOS files to locate maps of relevance and modify the ECU files accordingly based on their own knowledge.

Yes there are American "tuners" that simply directly copy others work (whenever you read about someone's car going into limp mode after tuning it's due to the tuner in question using the wrong firmware version because they can't remap only clone what others have done). However there are others still that will reverse engineer the file to see what the European tuners have done, then they try to replicate these changes in all the firmware remaps they themselves posess.

There are ways we encrypt files so that others cannot read them out, but quite honestly if you know the right people the encryption can be hacked and the file opened.

U.S. tuners have proven to be thieves time and time again, they get a few remaps then try to reverse engineer their own stuff. Europeans don't trust Americans whatsoever in this regard.

Yes there are TONs and TONs of resellers, thieves, and copycats out there moving files no question. 80% of the world's softwre comes from Evotech/Oliver or one of his junior tuners that's now out on their own like Pelka. Most of the files used by those mentioned above come from the same source, and none of them is a legit tuning house.

Just an observation--Switzer is making some huge HP gains with bolt-ons and stock internals. They hold the 60-130 record for a P-car, something like 4.25s. So it seems like they are doing their own customization of the software. I can't see how they are copying anyone elses since the system must be unique to their car.

Actually Switzer (located 15 minutes from where I grew up) doesn't modify software, they outsource as described above--this is not to say they can't purchase or pay for modified files. Again though I can't stress enough, it's extremely hard not to make serious power with turbos. What kind of file customization is really necessary to pair with their hardware kits? Not a whole lot really, more fuel is about the only requirement.

[Sticky]

Just an observation--Switzer is making some huge HP gains with bolt-ons and stock internals. They hold the 60-130 record for a P-car, something like 4.25s. So it seems like they are doing their own customization of the software. I can't see how they are copying anyone elses since the system must be unique to their car.

They are most likely getting someone outside to modify base files taken from Europe. No doubt the software is customized for the application but from what MHP is saying it is mostly timing and fuel that are adjusted.

[MoBoost]

This is really good stuff. To most enthusiasts like myself, we never get to see behind the scenes. It's always a mystery how someone other than the manufacturer can get access to tuning files. If I was curious to see what my tuning tables look like, how would an amature like me get access to that or is that totally proprietary information? Do you need special hardware/software? Since you tune a lot of vehicles, do you have to get access to separate DAMOS file for each car you tune, BMW, Porsche, Audi, etc...?

[Sticky]

This is really good stuff. To most enthusiasts like myself, we never get to see behind the scenes.

This is how the whole forum is pretty much.

[MHP LLC]

This is really good stuff. To most enthusiasts like myself, we never get to see behind the scenes. It's always a mystery how someone other than the manufacturer can get access to tuning files. If I was curious to see what my tuning tables look like, how would an amature like me get access to that or is that totally proprietary information? Do you need special hardware/software? Since you tune a lot of vehicles, do you have to get access to separate DAMOS file for each car you tune, BMW, Porsche, Audi, etc...?

Credit sticky for starting an unbiased site where you can actually post the truth without fear of negative repurcussions from the staff itself. Thank you!

sticky and I have spoken a few times about the sometimes comical clandestine nature of the European tuning business, much of it is in place to cover a trail of "tuners" that are simply middling someone else's software. Though with that being said you'll never read the names of the top guys doing the work anywhere, just never happens.

You can use a Durametric tool (Porsche Diagnostic) to check certain values, but in order to see eveything all the changes made, you would need to read the file out and open it with OLS or another form of file editing software. You would also have to crack the encryption on the file in order to open it.

Yes each vehicle has it's own DAMOS file, and they all come from either the OEM or the company that makes the processors (ie Bosch, Siemens, etc).

In the case of the N54s the RSA encryption keys were given to Alpina from BMW, then leaked out of Alpina and quickly spread around the world. Siemens did a good job containging those. One way or another though they all come from the same place.

[Yukohama]

This is how the whole forum is pretty much.

I like this alot! in for results as well, interesting and behind the scenes us not in the business usually dont know or see

[MoBoost]

Thanks Sticky! Great forum. It's nice to able to exercise your first amendment rights.

[MoBoost]

The Softronic guy claims he does the tuning for Switzer and other people. Champion says it uses GIAC. TPC who has the grudge match against Champion appears to use Protomotive. Evoms uses who, themselves?? They used to use GIAC but had a falling out. There are others out there too, such as FVD, Revo, APR, and EPL. The APR guy claims his tune with just a flash and exhaust gives faster 100-200 km/h times than other tunes with upgraded vtg turbos, ICs, headers, etc...Is that possible?

[Sticky]

It's nice to able to exercise your first amendment rights.

Tell me about it. After I spent a decade trying to do exactly that on BMW forums only to be pissed on for it I said enough was enough.

[Sticky]

The APR guy claims his tune with just a flash and exhaust gives faster 100-200 km/h times than other tunes with upgraded vtg turbos, ICs, headers, etc...Is that possible?

No, all those tunes on the stock turbos with bolt on's will end up in about the same place. You can only push the VTG's so far and you can see by the dynos and the trap speeds what the limit is.

If he tunes for race gas and such, sure, he can squeeze more out advancing the timing and such but apples to apples I don't a huge difference between him and the others. What is his reasoning for getting more? He isn't pushing more boost... so what is it?

[MHP LLC]

The Softronic guy claims he does the tuning for Switzer and other people. Champion says it uses GIAC. TPC who has the grudge match against Champion appears to use Protomotive. Evoms uses who, themselves?? They used to use GIAC but had a falling out. There are others out there too, such as FVD, Revo, APR, and EPL. The APR guy claims his tune with just a flash and exhaust gives faster 100-200 km/h times than other tunes with upgraded vtg turbos, ICs, headers, etc...Is that possible?

The only claims we put any stake into, including those made using our products, are those stemming from objective customer testing. Preferably track and/or VBox. Apply that logic to the entire aftermarket and you'll weed out the posers instantly.

[MoBoost]

No, all those tunes on the stock turbos with bolt on's will end up in about the same place. You can only push the VTG's so far and you can see by the dynos and the trap speeds what the limit is.

If he tunes for race gas and such, sure, he can squeeze more out advancing the timing and such but apples to apples I don't a huge difference between him and the others. What is his reasoning for getting more? He isn't pushing more boost... so what is it?

The APR guy is claiming just a tune an exhaust with stock vtg turbos his cars are faster than ones with upgraded vtgs (bigger compressor wheels, clipped turbines) and tune octane for octane. I just don't see how that's possible but there are a couple of guys (MadSex and Skandalis both in Greece) who have posted very fast times supporting this claim. I think they must have other mods but just BS'ing everyone

Here's a few posts on this
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...-reloaded.html
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...dified-24.html
There are some threads closed by moderators over this:
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...aq-thread.html

[Sticky]

The APR guy is claiming just a tune an exhaust with stock vtg turbos his cars are faster than ones with upgraded vtgs (bigger compressor wheels, clipped turbines) and tune octane for octane. I just don't see how that's possible but there are a couple of guys (MadSex and Skandalis both in Greece) who have posted very fast times supporting this claim. I think they must have other mods but just BS'ing everyone

I just don't see how it is possible. How are they faster than upgraded turbo 997 tt's? It makes no sense.

No offense to our Greek friends, but I don't trust those claims. How is APR able to explain being faster? What is the reasoning for it?

Tuners have different skills and seeing them in action is great but on the 997tt the tuners are all doing similar things with the stock turbos. I just don't really see what could account for a difference that would outperform upgraded turbo setups, thanks for the links, taking a look at it now.

[MoBoost]

Credit sticky for starting an unbiased site where you can actually post the truth without fear of negative repurcussions from the staff itself. Thank you!

sticky and I have spoken a few times about the sometimes comical clandestine nature of the European tuning business, much of it is in place to cover a trail of "tuners" that are simply middling someone else's software. Though with that being said you'll never read the names of the top guys doing the work anywhere, just never happens.

You can use a Durametric tool (Porsche Diagnostic) to check certain values, but in order to see eveything all the changes made, you would need to read the file out and open it with OLS or another form of file editing software. You would also have to crack the encryption on the file in order to open it.

Yes each vehicle has it's own DAMOS file, and they all come from either the OEM or the company that makes the processors (ie Bosch, Siemens, etc).

In the case of the N54s the RSA encryption keys were given to Alpina from BMW, then leaked out of Alpina and quickly spread around the world. Siemens did a good job containging those. One way or another though they all come from the same place.

Thanks. I have a Durametric tool that comes with a Softronic flash. It's good for datalogging but can't read any maps. Can anyone purchase software to read out tuning files and even if you could would it make any sense or is it all binary code?

[MoBoost]

I just don't see how it is possible. How are they faster than upgraded turbo 997 tt's? It makes no sense.

No offense to our Greek friends, but I don't trust those claims. How is APR able to explain being faster? What is the reasoning for it?

Tuners have different skills and seeing them in action is great but on the 997tt the tuners are all doing similar things with the stock turbos. I just don't really see what could account for a difference that would outperform upgraded turbo setups, thanks for the links, taking a look at it now.

Yeah, it's a lot of stuff to read but there's no explanation. The cars are wicked fast 5.5s 100-200 km/h with just a tune and exhaust, stock turbos, stock IC, no other supporting mods.

[MHP LLC]

Thanks. I have a Durametric tool that comes with a Softronic flash. It's good for datalogging but can't read any maps. Can anyone purchase software to read out tuning files and even if you could would it make any sense or is it all binary code?

You would need to buy OLS (not cheap) a BDM tool (not cheap) and then have the encryption cracked (have to know people) in order to see a screen full of binary (as you suggested).

For the $ spent you coud have a RUF tune.

[MoBoost]

You would need to buy OLS (not cheap) a BDM tool (not cheap) and then have the encryption cracked (have to know people) in order to see a screen full of binary (as you suggested).

For the $ spent you coud have a RUF tune.

Wow...Didn't realize it was that involved. Thanks for the reply. Are GTRs the same?

[MHP LLC]

Wow...Didn't realize it was that involved. Thanks for the reply. Are GTRs the same?

ECU wise they are OBD tunable or you can bench them. TCU wise last I checked (8+ mos ago, a lot of wasted time on that project) they were benchable but no one had access via OBD supposedly Cobb was working on that.

[misterknowital]

We employ and work with the finest automotive software engineers and automotive technicians that utilize their years of knowledge working for OEM manufacturers as well as with professional racing teams / engineers. The combination of our staff, equipment, facility and our unparalleled racing experience, clearly sets EVOMSit apart in the world of aftermarket automotive software development and tuning.

At EVOMSit we do not provide "gimmick" software options or “over sell, under deliver” hype. The EVOMSit team spends 100% of our precious research and development time engineering and delivering the highest technology product with pure crisp power delivery, Period! EVOMSit software with our “Integrated Switching Technology™” (IST) and “Sport Pedal™” (SP) features integrated into the OEM ECU are far more intelligent than other companies software with manual switching or any aftermarket stand alone ECU's. Our simple philosophy is providing the best performance automotive software which has been designed and optimized by enthusiasts for enthusiasts. Simple, Intelligent Tuning…...optimized.

CAUTION: EVOMSit Performance software is not for everyone. Our software has been developed for the true performance driver that demands pure and optimized performance without extra "fat". We do not spend our precious R&D time developing software “options” that quite frankly, in our opinion, are ridiculous. What enthusiast needs a “valet”, “ignition kill” or a “firewall protection” program? Many companies offer these types of options which cost time and money to develop, time that could be spent making their performance software optimized. I see, on their site they list it as this:



A lot of marketing fluff in there so who knows what is what. They do say they partner with race teams. Their time is "precious" after all, so I don't expect them to spend time on extra "fat" like getting all the details correct.

its a good school